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Gun Control Bullshit

April 16th, 2007 (07:21 pm)

[This all came out in a big, giant, incoherent BLLLLEEEAARRRGHH and needs to be refined. Sorry.]

Ironically, Rigger shared the URL of a Penn & Teller "Bullshit" episode with me earlier today. The topic is gun control, and (perhaps ironically in itself) it's one of the more rational discourses on the subject I've seen.

The show is here - 28 minute streaming Google video

Had some of the Virginia Tech teachers and students been carrying firearms, I would imagine the crazed man who shot them would have been stopped much sooner.

There is a truly outstanding thread on Slashdot arguing both sides of this theory. Excellent points made for and against a lot of the things I hypothesize about below. Thanks to [info]eviljohn for pointing it out. The Slashdot crowd tends to be a lot of highly intelligent people with strong opinions, so it's interesting and informative reading with less knee-jerk assholing than you might ordinarily find. They're way better at making these arguments than I am; I'm no good at debate.

There's a theory that concealed carry laws make criminals less likely to target people because they can never be sure who's got a gun. This is a really great theory, and I even put a little stock in it, but I think it only applies to more rational criminals - not the mentally unstable people who might shoot up a school. This guy probably wouldn't have thought about who might've had a gun. Rational thought didn't apply.

Gun control laws certainly wouldn't apply to him, either.

Regardless of the state of gun control laws, the killer would still have had access to his shotgun, because gun control laws don't control criminals with guns; they control law-abiding citizens with guns. Criminals can always find illegal items - it's what they do. From drugs to guns to exotic animal products, if it's out there, they'll get it. So crazy guy had his gun and he went to the college.

But if one or two people had been packing, fewer people would have died. Tragic.

This past Thursday, [info]robyn_r invited me down for dinner and a trip to the range. It was a really cool thing for him to do. He and his wife, Sylvia, are friends from back in my Stilyagi/Ann Arbor days. After a delicious homemade pizza dinner, Robyn and I headed to the range, where I shot a hell of a lot better than I expected to. Robyn had me try on a few different handguns, and the Sig P239 fit perfectly. On the way, we had a discussion about Second Amendment stuffs, wherein I was reminded that I am the kind of person who is far too naive to argue too much about gun control.

I'm all for owning guns, but also for storing and using them responsibly. Years ago, in another life, I thought that gun control laws would help to protect people from getting accidentally shot or shot by bad people on purpose. I thought that registering guns was a good idea, and that making people wait to buy their guns was also a good idea. Currently, I think both of those are really bad ideas. Background check? Those are great - those are perfect. Check the hell out of someone's background before they buy a gun. Still, as I mentioned, if a criminal wants a gun...well, they don't need a background check in Vinni's basement. There's also the training aspect; if someone wants to buy a gun, make damn sure they know how to use it. Not everyone is going to want to go through tactical defensive shooting courses, but at least a basic course like the one the NRA offers should be required. The four rules of firearm safety should be ingrained into the brains of everyone who is ever around a gun: 1.) all guns are always loaded; 2.) never point a gun at something or someone you are not willing to destroy; 3.) keep your finger off the trigger unless you are sighted in on the target you want to shoot; and 4.) verify your target and what is beyond your target.

My friend from long ago, Wendell, (now on lj as [info]nwleathersir06) taught me those rules in 1998. He also educated me on why registering guns is a bad idea. Once again, my naivete had me by the proverbial balls; I was thinking, "well, if you're not breaking the law, why should you care if you have to register the gun? That way, the police know you're allowed to have it if there's any question." Well, if you register your gun, the government also knows that you have it, and it makes it a whole lot easier to pluck it from your grip. Ask any Australian how "unlikely" that is. Back then, though, I vehemently and passionately argued with Wendell and our friend Chuck (who was on Wendell's side) about the matter. I can't even remember what my logic was, but now I know that I was insanely naive. All I was thinking about were good citizens and the law.

That was pretty much my whole point of view - crime. Still to this day, I haven't ever thought much about having to overthrow the government, which is what the Second Amendment is all about. Despite what my mother thinks, I am a good, decent, law-abiding citizen who, while discouraged with the current Administration, wouldn't ever think about overthrowing anyone during the normal course of any given day.

Robyn, on the other hand, is a pragmatist. In fact, for a time, he says that he was a One Issue Voter on this subject. He's not planning to overthrow anyone at the moment, but he recognizes that someday, say if George Bush successfully gets beyond the Twenty-Second Amendment (two-term limitation) due to his power-hungry legislation during times of war, there may be a need for a revolution. There may well, I realized. If Bush sets aside the Twenty-Second Amendment, I'd be tempted to take up arms against the government myself. Ok, I'd actually be more apt to staff the office behind the people taking up arms and try to work diplomatically, but I'd be in support of a revolution of some kind. Our government is out of control, but I still have hope that it's going to come back into balance. But if something awful does happen, if Bush further removes our civil liberties, people like me will be forced to stand idly by as the tanks roll past, because we didn't foresee the possibility that this could happen.

Gun control is a dicey subject, but it's not necessarily something that people should blindly follow their political party's leaders on. It is a complicated, convoluted, difficult issue that you can't just throw a gallon of black or white paint at. If you know me, you know I don't tend to follow the politics too closely. Like Dave Barry (I believe that's who it was,) I feel that the word politics comes from the base words "poly," meaning "many" and "tics," meaning "blood-sucking insects." But I do know that people who blindly follow a party on any issue are not thinking clearly.

The Democrats aren't entirely wrong in wanting to enforce some measure of control; they see the violence and want it to stop. They see children shooting themselves and their friends and their siblings with Dad's gun and they want it to stop. Of course we all want it to stop - the Republicans aren't out there passing out .45's to kids. The Democrats' answer is that if the guns aren't there in the first place, that can't happen. Or, if the guns are registered, that will somehow short-circuit the cycle of gun-related crime. Ok, I see the logic there. But there are problems that are born of taking away the guns. The Democrats are as naive as I have been on this issue. They're the cowboy in the white hat who abides by all that is right and true. On this thing, I mean. Sort of. Clumsy analogy, but work with me here.

The Republicans aren't entirely wrong, either; in fact, I lean more toward the Republican side of this issue, which is really disconcerting. Still, I recognize that making full-auto guns readily available probably isn't the best of ideas, regardless of how fun it might be to have them. Instead of punishing the whole society for the tragedy of the child shooting himself, they place the responsibility squarely where it belongs; on the gun owner. The parent who improperly stored the gun is to blame, not the gun itself, not guns in general, not society. Don't take away my stored chain saw because a youngster accidentally cuts off his hand when he found Grandpa's ready to go in the shed and didn't know how to use it. Don't make cars illegal because a little girl knew where the extra keys were and ran over a neighbor. The Republicans are the cowboy in the black hat who's not necessarily a bad guy. He might have done questionable things in the past, but in this moment, he's The Good Guy. He may go back to his evil ways, but in this shining moment, he's right and even if we don't like it, he's still right.

I kind of hate it that I'm making the same arguments that, a decade ago, I thought were asinine.

Until pretty recently, the gun advocates came across as ... well, fanatics for the most part. Gun-crazed rednecks and animal-shooting maniacs who were neither articulate nor educated in a lot of cases. News footage of trailer-dwelling people from Georgia come to mind, wearing filthy tank tops and ballcaps, shooting tin cans off a fence and drawling, "ya cain't take muh guns!" Charlton Heston didn't really help the matter any, either, even with his celebrity.

However, if you watch that episode of "Bullshit" linked above (and it really is worth 28 minutes of your life, regardless of what side of the issue you're on,) you'll see several very articulate, intelligent, rational people explain very calmly why we need to maintain our right to bear arms. Ok, there's also one strange lady who keeps 5 or 6 different firearms hidden in the fur shop she owns...as well as a .32 in her, um, bra. But there's also a woman who watched her mother and father deliberately shot in the head by a guy who drove his truck through the front window of the restaurant and began executing the patrons. Her gun was in her car because carrying a firearm was illegal. If she'd had it on her person, she likely could've stopped that man very, very quickly.

Most of us can, if we take a moment, see both sides of the story in terms of safety v. crime. But how many of us really think about the whole Protecting Ourselves from the Militia aspect? I, like many, thought that the first part of the Amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," was referring to the second part of the Amendment, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I thought that the Amendment was saying that we need a well regulated Militia of people bearing arms.

Well.

It's NOT.

The first part explains why the people must bear arms. The founding fathers just fought against a well regulated militia for their freedom, and if they hadn't had their own firearms, we'd still be a colony. The Amendment is saying, "Hey, we know that in order to remain free, we have to have an army regulated by the government. We get that. But you know what? Someday, that government might need to be put in its place, and so we're going to ensure that the people can indeed make that happen." Penn and Teller do a good job of explaining this. Here I was running around all those years quoting Jeaneane Garafalo ("The Second Amendment calls for a well regulated militia - it's not so Crazy Uncle Bob can have an Uzi!") when she and I were both tragically misinformed.

It's not an easy subject, like I said. The key to it all is responsible ownership. Kids won't shoot themselves accidentally with Mommy's handgun if it's properly locked up and inaccessible. It can be properly locked up and inaccessible to kids right next to the bed; it doesn't need to be in a hidden locker with the ammo stored in the attic in another locker. There are sane, sensible lock box solutions designed for exactly this. They don't even have keys or combinations to worry about. Keep your loaded gun immediately accessible to you and inaccessible to anyone else.

All of this talk is especially relevant today in light of the Virginia Tech shootings. It's a sad day and it could have possibly been avoided. Perhaps this will finally make a few light bulbs turn on. Columbine didn't do it, but that awhile ago now.

"A well-armed society is a polite society." I'm not sure how accurate that saying is, but I think it might be on the right track. We see it all the time in the animal kingdom; if two animals both have the capacity to seriously kill or injure each other, they don't do it unless there is a sincere and pressing need to do so. There's too much at stake. Too, when an animal's life is at stake, it will fight back. A seal in the jaws of a great white bites at its attacker, even though it is usually futile. A rabbit will bite at the nose of the fox as the fox attacks, and sometimes, the bunny gets away because the fox is so surprised at being bitten by a fucking rabbit that it has no response for that situation. Animals fight to survive with whatever tools they have when their lives are threatened. I think, were I faced with a maniac wielding a shotgun, I'd like to have another gun as my tool. Then I wouldn't have to be helplessly and powerlessly blown away.

As the "Bullshit" episode discusses, if we all have guns it's not going to turn into a shooting gallery every time someone gets pissed off. Arguments happen at gun shows all the time, but how often does anyone get shot?

Most of us are smarter than that, and the ones who aren't will soon get weeded out.

Comments

Posted by: Hope ([info]shadowriderhope)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 12:44 am (UTC)

Wow.

Some really compelling arguments there. May have changed my (previously not quite made-up) mind, even. Thanks.

Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 01:42 am (UTC)

gosh, thanks! :-) i just rewrote a lot of it because it came out really awkwardly and didn't say what i want it to say. it still doesn't...it's such a huge issue. but, thanks for thinking about it.

just curious, did you watch the bullshit episode?

Posted by: Hope ([info]shadowriderhope)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 01:46 am (UTC)

Oh yeah, I should've mentioned that - I did watch it, and that's what I was referring to, though your post, despite having been a bit unpolished, also made some really good points.

Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 01:03 am (UTC)

...and I can already smell the ozone from the Big Backlash coming out of Blacksburg. That was an awfully unfortunate coincidence of timing on my part today, I confess - I hadn't even heard about Blacksburg yet when I sent that URL to you.

But no one'll pay a bit of attention to the fact that the perp at VATech should've been in psychiatric lock-down, just like no one pays attention to the fact that numerous existing gun laws were broken by the goobers in Columbine, CO. What's the use of more laws when the ones we have now aren't enforced, I wonder?

-R

Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 01:43 am (UTC)

i wondered if you'd heard before you sent it. truly striking timing, given that you hadn't. i'm really glad you sent it, though; it was a great piece.

at some point, there has to be a turning point where people begin to see the truth that's always been there. i was amongst the more vehement supporters of gun control because i didn't have the facts - so, if we just get the facts out there in a sane, rational, calm manner, then more people are more likely to listen.

i hope.

Posted by: tawollen ([info]tawollen)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 01:46 am (UTC)
Gun laws

I have been having this same conversation much more recently myself. I think that if more "legal" people were to carry, it may be safer. I agree that the bad guys will always find something, even if they destroy all the guns in the world, it would be explosives, knives, or big sticks. Bad guys will always be bad. I work downtown Detroit and our company (as most) do not allow firearms anywhere on property. Not that I spend a lot of time in downtown, but when I do (like doing photography at abandoned buildings) i REALLY want to be armed. I think that if someone goes through the training and "checkout" they should be able to carry anywhere (work, bar, home, etc) as long as they follow common sense (e.g. concealed weapons should be concealed and not shown unless in imminent danger). Between this incident (where we are banned from carrying firearms) and the local one where someone came into a workplace (where they are probably not allowed to carry) I am even more adamant that we (the legal people) should be able to carry anywhere. I think that the "testing" is lame and probably should be better in order to prevent someone from making stupid mistakes (drinking and carrying), but what do we do to fix it?

Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:01 am (UTC)
Re: Gun laws

i completely understand where you're coming from, especially given your photographic work in the less-savory sectors of town. i'm kind of torn on the "Carrying everywhere" issue because of diminished capacity and judgment when alcohol is involved. then again, someone could argue that our judgment and capacity is impaired when we're really angry or hurt, too. it's not an easy issue.

what do we do to fix it? isn't that just the question of the day...

Posted by: Random Thoughts from the Great Northwest ([info]mbrosz)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 01:53 am (UTC)

It never ceases to amaze me how "gun crazy" Americans are. And somehow people believe they will be safer if more people were packing. Guns are for one thing and one thing only, perpetuating violence. The effect will always have the same nature as its cause. Violence cannot cause peace, no matter how much we want to believe it. This country was born violently and can't seem to go a decade or two without once again going to war. It is a vicious cycle that will forever perpetuate itself until people turn away from the greed, fear, and cowardice that makes them act violently.

Compassion is not a weakness, it is a strength. Compassion is the antithesis of violence. Violence is easy, it is the path of the weak minded and self-centered and for those who harbor such fear of destruction that they act without thought of the long term ramifications.

True peace and nonviolence is much more difficult. Peace that is lasting and meaningful cannot be wrought through violence. Peace through violence is always temporary at best.

Of course Americans (though they may deny it) adore violence. The culture is steeped in it. Our deluded reality is that many of the ills of the world can be solved through violent action. When in fact, violent action is the worst ill that the world knows.

I guess we all have to make a choice of the kind of world we want to live in. Personally I prefer not to live in fear and pack a gun. This life is a temporary state, carrying a gun doesn't change that. Something is going to get you, how you choose to live until it does is what is important.

Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:24 am (UTC)
dalai lama

yay, i was looking forward to your reply on this to balance me out. :-)

of course, you are absolutely right. ideally, we'd all throw away our weapons and live in harmony.

unfortunately, we live in a society in which there is a lot of violence, and most americans aren't willing to lay down and die for some random nut who wants to hurt them. turning the other cheek to the point of death is a truly noble and stunning thing to do, but people think about their children and their families and their husbands and they want to stay here with them and to protect them.

yes, it's clinging to this life, but we are not a buddhist nation.

Guns are for one thing and one thing only, perpetuating violence. The effect will always have the same nature as its cause.

i agree that a gun is not an instrument of peace, and that by pointing it at someone you are winning through violence. however, if it came right down to it (and again, you're a way better buddhist than i am,) if i had a gun and someone was trying to kill you, i would protect you without a second thought. i am not enlightened enough, nor is the average american enlightened enough, to simply stand idly by and think, "ok, mark's time in this life is done now, it's time for him to leave me and i'll never see him again, and he's going to die horribly right now before my very eyes." were i better at being less attached to you and to this life, i'm sure it would be easier. but all living things fight to stay alive and most to protect their offspring and their family group. you're a huge part of my family group and i'm a human animal.

Compassion is not a weakness, it is a strength.

i would never, ever say that compassion is a weakness! compassion and non-violence is a huge strength, it's something that i strive for and admire. this is why the gun issue is a difficult one for me to grasp. i have to have a certain amount of pragmatism at this point in my life - i haven't reached a point of being able to accept everything that i would like to accept. i do believe that some things are worth fighting for, even if the noble thing to do would be to step aside and let whatever i care about be torn to bits.

if the whole world were gentler, more compassionate, then there wouldn't be a need for all of this. and i do understand that "the whole world" only gets there one person at a time, and that if we all keep taking the easy way out then no one's going to ascend to a higher moral ground. but i don't think that letting the government run amok all over us is something i'd be willing to tolerate. like i said, i'd be the one trying to work it out diplomatically, but i sure can see where the people taking up arms would be coming from.

i do see the irony, the mirror of tibet and china and the differences between what his holiness did and what i'm talking about here. but tibet did fight back, they didn't all stand aside and let the chinese wash over them - they just lost. if the soldiers hadn't lost, the dalai lama would have been able to remain in tibet and i doubt very much that this would make him sad. sad at the loss of life and the violence, but not sad that his culture would be gradually eroded and destroyed.

looking back, his exile from tibet has had a profoundly positive effect on the world - it's made his story more poignant and important, he has reached more people because he has been forced to remain outside of tibet.

This life is a temporary state, carrying a gun doesn't change that. Something is going to get you, how you choose to live until it does is what is important.

if you were attacked by a bear, would you just let it kill you without putting up any resistance? if you could somehow conjure up anything to save your life in that instant, would you say, "no, thanks?" if your hiking companion had a gun, would you tell him to put it away and let you die?

there is a fine line between what constitutes unnecessary violence and what constitutes a basic, primal urge to survive. yes, overcoming primal urges is part of the game here. still, i don't think it is a sin to protect something you love and cherish from a horrible, unnecessary demise or from pain and suffering.

Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:04 pm (UTC)

And somehow people believe they will be safer if more people were packing.

That's because they *are* safer. Demonstrably safer, according to the US Dep't of Justice's crime statistics. This has been proven in every state in the US where concealed-carry is allowed, contrary to the anti-gun lobby's claims of "bloodbaths in the streets."

You make the US seem like an isolated entity here. When the UK banned almost all private ownership of legal arms, the crime rate dropped for a month or so, but then it spiked up and has not dropped since. The number of shooting deaths has not changed (because what criminal would be obeying a gun law but not the laws against murder or rape), but the incidence of non-gun-related violent crime has risen by over 200% above the original pre-ban statistics. And why is this, I wonder? Because criminals in the United Kingdom KNOW THAT THEIR PREY CANNOT DEFEND THEMSELVES.

I agree that compassion is a strength, but having the ability (and the legal right) to defend oneself from violent harm is not a weakness. An article of my religious faith mandates that we have a moral obligation to both show compassion to the less fortunate but also to defend ourselves from harm. The two are not mutually exclusive. And "showing compassion" does not equal letting a mass-murderer go on about his shooting spree - that would not be showing compassion to any of his or her victims or potential victims, would it?

The fact of the matter is that firearms are merely inanimate tools, without any morals whatsoever. How a person uses a tool is another matter; one can hunt for game for their sustenance, or one can shoot targets for skill and precision, as I do. Or one can go "off the reservation" and shoot people. But the gun doesn't make that decision; the person behind the trigger does.

You are just as dead by being stabbed through the heart with a screwdriver or having your skull caved in with a roofing hammer as you would be by being shot by a pistol. Yet we hear no one crowing for more hand-tool-control legislation.

More people are killed in this country each year by automobiles than by firearms, but no one's talking about banning cars these days.

More people are killed in the US by medical malpractice every year than by firearms, but no one's talking about banning doctors.

As for the quality of life, I applaud you on the strength of your convictions. I also choose not to live in fear. But I live without fear because I *DO* have the right to carry a firearm if I deem it prudent. Because that's the world we live in, whether you like it or not. I join you in our efforts to make it a better place, however unlike you I don't ignore the dark side of what's out there now; I choose to defend myself from it, as a matter of last resort.

-R

(Anonymous) - *snort*
(Anonymous) - Fear
Posted by: Eric ([info]eviljohn)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:18 am (UTC)

Blah blah blah. This argument is tiring. No one ever makes mistakes when carrying a gun, right? Everyone who carried a gun wouldn't be a hothead and have perfect judgment 100% of the time. I can only imagine what would have happened in a situation like that with everyone shooting "in self defense." I'm very happy I don't live in the wild west.



Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:27 am (UTC)

of course mistakes are made while carrying a gun, but fewer than you'd probably expect. seriously, how often do you hear about Joe Random Citizen gunning someone down with his legal, concealed firearm because he got hotheaded?

balance that with how many people have died in these mass shootings over the last couple of decades, and how many lives could've been saved.

it's not that i don't see where you're coming from; it's just that i've been around a lot of people with guns who are every bit as rational as you are, and i've been in places where a lot of people are carrying (open carry, even) and amazingly...nothing happened.

Posted by: Eric ([info]eviljohn)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:29 am (UTC)

A good comment on slashdot:

You're playing with hypotheticals here. It is certainly conceivable that, if a large number of VT students were all carrying concealed weapons that, when the shooting broke out, someone would have shot the nutcase. On the other hand it is conceivable that, if a large number of VT students were all carrying concealed weapons, there may have been a number of accidental or mistaken shootings at the same time.

Consider: you are carrying a concealed weapon and you hear gunfire coming from the room down the hall (or maybe from the floor below). You draw your weapon, and the next thing you know someone carrying a gun walks into the room. Is it another student from elsewhere in the building responding to the gunfire, or the nutcase? Do you shoot them before they can shoot you? Now add plenty of screaming and panic, and multiply this scenario by the number of different panicked scared students all carrying firearms.

To my mind each case (the nutcase getting shot, and a anumber of innocent students getting shot) seems equally reasonable, so given that the whole thing is purely hypothetical can you really claim, with any certainty, that lots of students carrying guns would have saved lives? I don't see that that is clear at all.

(Anonymous) - You joke, right?
Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 02:30 am (UTC)

and yes...the argument is tiring. it's because we've heard so much of it all before and nothing ever gets resolved. so...do we just stop arguing? religious debate is tiring, too, because there's no one right, verifiable answer. still, debates worth having.

it is more important than "blah blah blah," however; even you seem to think so, because you have an opinion on the subject.

Posted by: Random Thoughts from the Great Northwest ([info]mbrosz)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 03:04 am (UTC)

"i don't think it is a sin to protect something you love and cherish from a horrible, unnecessary demise or from pain and suffering."

Sin has nothing to do with it. This goes beyond "right or wrong" and "good or bad." "Unnecessary demise," that's funny, are you going to live forever? Pain and suffering = fact of life.

But I'm playing with you a little.

The truth is that the bear would get a fight.

But the trouble is that our culture somehow thinks that it will rid itself from violence by perpetuating the tools of violence. And the truth is that guns have little or nothing to do with it. Guns are a symptom of a sick society. Control guns or not, until people really want peace and are willing to put away their fears to gain peace, we will forever live steeped in violence.

I've lived in Chicago, Detroit, New York, and Los Angeles. I've driven down Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn and played blues clubs at night on the southside of Chicago. I've been in some pretty gnarly places all over the country and somehow I managed to survive without a firearm.

And some people who have firearms do not survive. The guns have nothing to do with it.

Guns don't cause violence, the mind does. Guns are simply a manifestation of the human propensity toward violence.

Argue gun control and self protection all you want. The root of the problem lies much deeper. It rests in the karma of a violently conditioned mind.

Oh and by the way, His Holiness once stated that he would not have Tibet back if it meant going to war.

Posted by: airynd ([info]airynd)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 03:28 am (UTC)

""Unnecessary demise," that's funny, are you going to live forever? Pain and suffering = fact of life.

But I'm playing with you a little."


i know you are, but i see the underlying point, too. of course none of us will be around forever, but many of us have a lot of good things to do before we go. had ghandi been bitten by a snake and died as a child, the world would be worse off for it. and yes, pain and suffering is a fact of life, but it is our instinct to avoid as much of it as possible, and rightly so.

"I've been in some pretty gnarly places all over the country and somehow I managed to survive without a firearm."

i've had a concealed carry permit for years, and i've only actually carried a gun on my person twice for exactly the same reason you state - i've never felt the need for it. and, thankfully, i never have had the need for it. most people never will. i got the permit so that i could legally and more easily carry my glock with me in the car to and from the shooting range.

"And some people who have firearms do not survive. The guns have nothing to do with it."

i don't think you'll convince anyone whose life has been saved by a gun of that. yes - when it's our time, it's our time. but then again, who's to say when it's our time? ;-)

"Argue gun control and self protection all you want. The root of the problem lies much deeper. It rests in the karma of a violently conditioned mind."

i don't disagree with that, not at all. but here's the thing. in our world as it is right now, if america outlaws guns and abandons violence, then we are overrun by the next country who wants to come on in. the world isn't ready for anyone to just suddenly give up violence - it's a gradual evolution.

y'know how, in movies and television (don't get me started on using hollywood as a model of reality, but work with me here) when there's a face-off between two guys pointing guns at each other? usually, there's a gradual lessening of hostility if there's no clear power differential. they negotiate, either verbally or through body language, that they're both going to put their weapons down.

i think it kind of has to go like that in the world. it kinda worked for bringing the end of the cold war (mutually assured destruction is a pretty good deterrent,) and perhaps we, as a species, will eventually grow to the point where we don't have to use violence. in the meantime, this is our collective karma. yours may be all pink hearts and teddy bears, my dear, but the rest of us have a few things to work out yet. ;-)

"Oh and by the way, His Holiness once stated that he would not have Tibet back if it meant going to war."

i know; but my point was that if the tibetan soldiers had been able to initially repel the chinese, he wouldn't have exiled himself because he was so upset about the battle. no, that wasn't my whole point...argh! stupid triazolam!! NEVER TRY TO DEBATE POLITICS OR RELIGION ON DRUGS! EVER! FUCK!

Posted by: Matthew ([info]fourgotten)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 05:49 am (UTC)

Not too many years ago, I also felt that there was no need for an armed populace, much less one that carried weapons with them all of the time.

Now, I have a concealed handgun permit in two states and carry a pistol with me.

Why? Because the police cannot protect me if some freak decides that I looked at him wrong and must die for it. Because I refuse to die at the hands of someone who would kill me for little or no reason.

I hope that I never have to use it. I hope that the only bullets that I fire from my gun are at the range or hunting. I hope like anything that I never have to take the life of another person.

When I first began to consider getting my concealed hangun permit, I thought about time in my life where I might have used a handgun were one available to me.

I could think of two.

The first one was when I was sitting with some friends in a Denny's and somebody came through the front door, held a flare gun to the chest of the waitress (a personal friend of mine) and robbed the place. I did not know what would happen to the waitress... a 20ga flare gun is NOT a toy and can easily kill a person when fired at them... especially from less than a foot away. I know that, were I armed at the time, I would have shot the person who had the flare gun. I wouldn't have felt guilty about it either. I would have felt bad that I'd had to shoot him, but I wouldn't have felt guilty in having protected the life of another person.

The second time that I would have used a firearm, were one available to me, I was working late-night in a book store and some guy came in and robbed the place. My partner and I were both unsure if the guy really had a gun under his shirt or not. Were I armed, I would have killed him. Were it to turn out later that he was armed with nothing more than a can of Binaca, I would have felt no more guilty than if he'd had a .45. I refuse to give up my life to someone simply so that they can try to take home $150 out of my cash register.

My life is precious to me. This is the life that I have and, until I'm ready for it to end, I'll do whatever it takes to keep ahold of it. If that means that I carry a pistol with me then so be it. I wish that I didn't.

A few things that have been touched on earlier in this discussion:

Children and firearms.
When I was five, my father taught me to shoot. It didn't make me into a gun nut. I enjoyed target shooting. It was a fun past time and I got pretty good. I didn't buy a gun of my own for another 20-some years.
Along with teaching me how to shoot, he also taught me how NOT to have accidents with guns.
He taught me that bullets can kill.
He taught me to ALWAYS treat a gun as if it were loaded (so much so, that I still have a hard time looking down the barrel of a gun to make sure it's clean, even if the bolt is removed from the gun, or the barrel is out of my pistol)
He taught me to NEVER point a gun at something that is not to be shot, to keep my guns uncocked until such time as they are to be fired, and to keep my fingers away from the trigger until the sights are locked on target and I'm going to fire.
I learned at an early age that guns are not toys and are not to be treated as such. I learned that guns are tools. Tools can be dangerous if not treated with respect. Tools can kill.

A five-year-old is capable of learning that.

I'm not saying that people should keep loaded guns sitting around their houses if they have kids around... however, they should teach their children what firearms are about and of what they are capable. A child who knows this information is much less likely to have an "accident" with a firearm.

Crap.... there was more in my head, but it's getting late and most of it's leaked out onto the carpet...

Posted by: Eric ([info]eviljohn)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 06:40 pm (UTC)

Hmm. So two situations resolved without violence or anyone getting hurt. But if you had a gun there'd be at least two dead people now.

I'm happy you didn't have a gun.

Posted by: Robyn ([info]robyn_r)
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 06:15 am (UTC)
Thoughts and such..

Hoo Boy! This topic has been given quite the thorough airing! :)

I've got some thoughts, but will need to wait till I'm more awake.

Airyn, see my email comments for the moment.

More later.

Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 11:36 am (UTC)

Long, but nice to read. I actually remember some of those discussions years ago.

Interesting perspective since I saw the same thing (re: government) when the Dems were in power and each day passing new anti-gun legislation (and executive orders when laws couldn't get through). The passage of The Patriot Act was the red flag for the current administration (imo). Extend your concern to "government" (regardless of which Majority Party is at the helm) and I think you've nailed it.

After all, history has proven that government's nature is to try to extend its power over the governed; beyond those powers originally granted to that government. Just because one party or the other is generally your favorite for other reasons doesn't mean it's not subject to the intoxication of power. Anti-gun laws are the way for it to protect itself from The People when The People finally decide that enough is enough.

Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 11:51 am (UTC)

"eviljohn wrote: Apr. 17th, 2007 04:26 am (UTC)
And how would gun-carrying civilians be any less corrupt or fallible than the police?"

When Texas passed it's CHL law, it included a requirement for DPS to collect a bunch of statistics. Over the years those statistics have shown that CHL holders, as a population, are involved in less crime than the general population. What surprised even DPS was that the CHL population is also less likely to be the perpetrators of any crime than the population of LEOs within the state. So that would appear to be your what, where and when. Your how might be because the people willing to jump through the hoops needed to acquire and maintain a CHL are personality types cut from a different cloth those who seek a badge as a career choice.

(Anonymous) - And...... ???
Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: April 17th, 2007 09:11 pm (UTC)

Perhaps I'm at the cusp of several of life's aspect; the junction of pragmatic, optomistic, pessimistic, and idealistic. I visualize a graphic of it as a Yin/Yang symbol but with 4 parts instead of 2.

I'm optomistic because I trust the majority of my neighbors to be regular folks; as trustworthy with their own self-defense as I am with mine.

I'm pessimistic because I know that there is a very small minority within our midst that can and will prey on the innocent if given the chance.

I'm idealistic because I've concluded that this country's Founders knew what they were about when writing The Constitution after having extricated themselves from a strong, central government.

I'm pragmatic in that I know the tendancy of all governments is to expand their power to the detriment of the freedom of the governed and that the ability to resist that expansion resides in the 2nd Amendment which few (if any) governments have codified into their creation document.

IOW I fear a government that has absolute power without constraint because "good intentions" will never withstand the forces at work within the halls of power. Yet I trust the individual people (the governed) within that system to do what's right for themselves and their families. At the same time I "gird my loins" to prepare for those few who would try to harm my family or me for gain (hope for the best but plan for the worst).

Posted by: Random Thoughts from the Great Northwest ([info]mbrosz)
Posted at: April 18th, 2007 04:11 am (UTC)
Draw any inference you want

School Safety

Between 1994 and 1999, there were 220 school associated violent events resulting in 253 deaths - - 74.5% of these involved firearms. Handguns caused almost 60% of these deaths. (Journal of American Medical Association, December 2001)

In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)

Nearly 8% of adolescents in urban junior and senior high schools miss at least one day of school each month because they are afraid to attend. (National Mental Health & Education Center for Children & Families, National Association of School Psychologists 1998)

The National School Boards Association estimates that more than 135,000 guns are brought into U.S. schools each day. (NSBA, 1993)

Children and Gun Violence

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

America and Gun Violence

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

But guns aren't a problem. Right.

I'm sure this will bring on a barrage of pro gun statements. But if you want something bad enough, regardless of how destructive it is, you can find a justification for it.

Posted by: Random Thoughts from the Great Northwest ([info]mbrosz)
Posted at: April 18th, 2007 04:33 am (UTC)
Or maybe you'll like these better

Gun Injuries and Deaths Among Young People

In 1998 (the most recent year for which there are statistics) 10 young people a day died from gunshot.

Gun homicide is the fourth leading cause of death for young people 10-14 years of age and the second leading cause of death for young people 15-24. [National Center for Health Statistics, 1997.]

Gunshot wounds are the leading cause of death for both African-American and white teenage males [Journal of the American Medical Association].

One in six parents say they know a child who accidentally shot himself or herself with a gun [Harvard School of Public Health].

Guns and Suicide

A youth aged 10-19 committed suicide with a gun every six hours in 1995 -- 1,449 young people in one year [National Center for Health Statistics, 1997].

At a national level, emergency room data verify that suicide attempts with firearms are almost always fatal -- for every gun suicide, there is less than one nonfatal injury. [Journal of the American Medical Association, 1995].

Suicide is nearly 5 times more likely to occur in a household with a gun than in a household without a gun. [Kellerman, A.L. et al., N Engl J Med 327, 1993.]

The US Compared to Other Countries

In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]

Nine out of ten young people who are murdered in industrialized countries are slain in the United States [United Nations Children’s Fund report, "The Progress of Nations" quoted in St. Paul Pioneer Press, 9/26/93].

The US Compared to Other Countries

Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]

Every two years, more Americans die of gunshot than there were American soldiers killed during the entire Vietnam War [National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac].

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